They did not have the prison system we do today; they had only dire threats and punishments such as the death penalty for people like Lama’s father, who in those days were burying their daughters alive. Should people like that be allowed to go free and put all the people around them in hell for the rest of their lives?
Well we can always discuss about who did what to who when the evidence is contentious. I am sorry to learn that you approve of hell & the torture that is perpetrated there at the behest of allah – so graphically described in the qur’an. Such an entity should be opposed by all who value civilised behaviour. Besides taking an unequivocal stand against torture, I think probably the most valuable way to oppose allah is to point out that there is no evidence for the existence of this entity. If people wish to believe in something for which there is no evidence, then that is their choice, but they have no right to restrict the freedom of others on the basis of their unsubstantiated metaphysical assertions.
I do oppose allah’s garments of fire & the pouring of boiling fluids on to people. These are barbaric actions commissioned by ‘the beneficent, the merciful’. I likewise regard beheading, amputation, stoning and flogging as barbaric. Where a society imposes such punishments it only degrades itself by lowering its behaviour to that of its criminal elements. The criminal justice system of any society must abjure any form of physical or mental abuse if it is to set an example of civilised behaviour – this is recognised in human rights conventions which were created when mature humanistic values began to usurp the savage penalties sanctioned by religion. I believe that every effort should be made to reform people who commit wrongs, including those committing such utter savagery as Lama’s father. Some people will be capable of reform if they are brought to realise the wrong which they have done. Some people will not reform and all that can be done is to prevent them from harming any more people by keeping them in custody. I have seen no evidence that condoning the savage punishments of allah, or imposing pale human imitations following allah’s example are conducive to promoting a humane society. It is of course essential that a society has laws in place which proscribe wrongdoing, including child marriage and spousal rape – neither of which, to my knowledge, are proscribed in the qur’an or the sunna. Ultimately, the most important way to prevent or at least minimise the perpetration of vile crimes is to educate children to respect themselves and other people, to learn to empathise, and to reject violence as any form of solution to social problems.
The “savage punishments of allah” are the reactions of a mother whose child has been harmed. You will see these reactions as long as children (remembering that people are generally referred to as children in scriptures) are being harmed. If we protect children from harm–physical, mental, and spiritual–the reactions will stop. Also, they did not have the prisons we do in that time and place.
Could you clarify … 1: do you condone torture that is carried out at allah’s behest in hell and which is described in the qur’an: garments of fire & the pouring of boiling fluids on to people? 2: Do you support any or all of the legal penalties of beheading, amputation, stoning and flogging which are prescribed in the qur’an and sunna? I note that you have already said that ‘harsh punishments and hell are made for such people’ (Lana’s father).
Thanks for the reply. Whilst the Islamic world regards Muhammed as the greatest man who ever lived, I do know that there are serious allegations made against him: that he did condone stoning & amputation, that he approved the execution of men who had already surrendered, that he had sex with a nine year old. Defenders of Muhammed who stop short of outright glorification of these matters will seek to argue about the context of the times. It is true that different times have different standards of behaviour but, for me, reason and decency say a firm no to all of these aforementioned. Even if you do still see him as a force for good, let’s be objective about what is known about his life – in which case, does he really deserve to be placed on a pedestal? There have been an awful lot more enlightened people in history in my book. Let us embrace our oneness as a species, commit ourselves to non-violence and to reason and thus to the abjuration of the unverifiable and often repugnant (e.g. hell) claims of revealed religions.
Muhammed was going up against people like 5-year-old Lama’s father who raped, tortured and killed her. These people never followed him, they only pretend. Harsh punishments and hell are made for such people. It was because of the prevalence of these men at the time that Aisha’s father asked Muhammed to marry and take care of her. No matter what anyone claims, there is no hard evidence to show if or when he slept with her. She never had any children with him.
“There is no god” is precisely what Prophet Muhammed was saying–he destroyed ALL of the gods in the Ka’bah, and Arabic is not case sensitive, so there is not nor ever was God. He was talking of oneness, connectedness (sincerity), not any god or God.
That’s interesting Deborah. I confess I am no Arabist, nor a theologian, but I’ve always understood that allah is derived from al ilah, ‘the god’, & that allah (I’ve read – related to Hebrew el) was originally one of many gods – the others being subsequently abolished in development of monotheism, in the same way that the Jews came about their one yahweh. If what you say is true, I’d have thought that an Arabic word meaning ‘oneness’, ‘connectedness’ etc would have been applied as the primary name instead of ‘the god’. Academic discussion aside, it is certainly the case that today allah is perceived as someone whose will must be obeyed & enforced – but isn’t that what was said from the off in the qur’an & sunna? Not seeking to stereotype, but we’re back to stoning & amputations which I contend are – to say the least – unethical in any circumstance. That is my view as a humanist anyway, salaam.
The word god you are referring to is simply pointing to something that is worthy of worship. In Sura Iklas (Sincerity) the word Allah is clearly explained as meaning one–no word “god” comes after that word–it is added in translations by scholarly and political puppeteers who need the fictional God they have created and use to control others. Regarding the stoning and amputations; Muhammed could do only so much in the very small window of time he had–no one can turn an entire society around on a dime. He did what he could, always pointing in a direction away from all that. However, he prophesied they would backslide terribly and that there would come a day when the mosques would be in fine shape, but the worst people would be going into and coming out of them.
An inspired re-working of the Shahada, Maryam, echoing the words of the rationalist British Liberal MP, J M Robertson (1856-1933): You deny the existence of nine-hundred-and-ninety-nine alleged Gods. I merely deny one – yours.
Thanks for your activities, let me paste my idea about islamophobia here, maybe it’s not match here but I ‘d like ithere to attend you to it:
I have of course islamophobia, I have phobia with the sentences of Quran that order to crimes and with islamists who do these crimes!
Islamophobia means you can not , don’t have phobia from Islam, Islam’s manifest is Quran, you can not be passive with ordering to crimes and systematic violences, with sentence that order to kill nonbelievers to lslam, stoning, rape, rape children, cutting hands and feet of people oppositly, killing with falling down from mountains for homosexuals and many other crimes, if somebody don’t have phobia, are passive or kindness with these crimes, I have phobia from them to! Islamophobia in words means it, but you can not have phobia from lslam and say ok it’s enough and I am so kindness with who do these crimes, logically you have phobia from them as criminals of these crimes! It’s so funny that some islamists or their guards and supporters! try to something else with falsification!, they try to save these source of crimes Quran and criminals of it with trying to show that you have phobia from so called Muslims that at first sufferd from Islam, the people that can not become free from lslam and islamists, although they were and are in fight with lslam for long time, you can see them in Iran, Egypt, Tunisia, Afghanistan and all other countries under crimes of lslam! yes we have phobia from Islam and its crime manifest Islam, from islamists who do these crimes like Taliban, Alghaedeh, Islamic Republic, Hamas, Hizbollah and …, and not only from so called Muslims that they are directly under these crimes but also not from poor kept unaware people that they use them to do their crimes on them and got to their hatred aims and use them to do it too! (of course these last group are like aware islamists dangerous too but they are not same, they don’t work for islamists, and usually when they be attended to their false they accept and stop, because of their kept calm humanity that all have it, but has to take care about them , if they want to do Islamic crimes be stopped, attend them and try to free them from Islam for themselves and others!) one mounths ago Islamic Republic cuted the fingers of one man in shiraaz that they made him like other millions people so poor that was in danger of dieing when he tried to get something to eat they arrested him and with the sentences of Quran cuted his fingers! I attend to who that try to show these two group islamists (criminals) and millions so called Muslims but actually under crimes of Islam same! no, it’s not so, these millions are in fighting to become free from Islam and criminals islamists! we support them and help them with fighting with Islam for their and our rights! we are same in hate and have phobia and fighting with these crimes, with sentences of Quran and islamists! There is no place for new fascism Islam, I have of course islamophobia, I have phobia with the sentences of Quran that order to crimes and with islamists who do these crimes! http://www.m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152565497765012&id=601700011&set=a.107870495011.190493.601700011&ref=stream&_rdr#10152567165835012 The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran. Most of today’s Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book’s many calls to violence according to what their own moral preconceptions find justificable. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology. Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad’s own martial legacy – and that of his companions -along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
Hey, last time Maryam brought up an Atheist version of the shahada, I took note and came up with a tattoo design for it. I wasn’t sure I’d done it right, but an Iraqi dude noticed it when I had accidentally left my notebook open and confirmed the meaning. It’s good to go!
What do you think of that, though? Should an american satan rock that tatt, or is it too culturally insensitive? I know cultural insensitivity is a curse word around here & I tend to agree, but let me put it another way. Moslems are an oppressed minority here, for real. For a guy who looks like their typical oppressor (Anglo) to wear an open insult to their stupid faith, that seems like a dick move.
But oh, I hate Islam an awful lot. Submission. It puts the thing I hate the most about all religions front and center. I wanna show my pride in rejecting all flavors of god. Should I get the tattoo?
Yes there is a God, an invented one by men..He exists in millions of People’s imagination..I am ok with that.
What I very much resent is the blatant violence and hatred towards people who do not believe the same as you..This is across the board around the World whatever the denomination may be. I am against any form of proselytizing. Just look at the very expensive and wasteful process of electing a New Pope and the ridiculous and anachronistic Carnival around it, while 80% of their flock lives below poverty level!!!
Thy shalt not kill..and what do they do? Kill for this reason, kill for that reason and the blatant killing of our environment and not a peep from any of those clerics, nor priests, nor popes, nor monks etc and that to me, my fellow humans, is the biggest sin of all and it will be our demise very soon!
The two questions I asked you (21 March 11:15pm) pertain to today. Will you answer them for me please?
There is no go except allah and muhammed is his mesenger
They did not have the prison system we do today; they had only dire threats and punishments such as the death penalty for people like Lama’s father, who in those days were burying their daughters alive. Should people like that be allowed to go free and put all the people around them in hell for the rest of their lives?
Well we can always discuss about who did what to who when the evidence is contentious. I am sorry to learn that you approve of hell & the torture that is perpetrated there at the behest of allah – so graphically described in the qur’an. Such an entity should be opposed by all who value civilised behaviour. Besides taking an unequivocal stand against torture, I think probably the most valuable way to oppose allah is to point out that there is no evidence for the existence of this entity. If people wish to believe in something for which there is no evidence, then that is their choice, but they have no right to restrict the freedom of others on the basis of their unsubstantiated metaphysical assertions.
I suppose you believe it is civilized behavior to let Lama’s father get away with what he did.
I do oppose allah’s garments of fire & the pouring of boiling fluids on to people. These are barbaric actions commissioned by ‘the beneficent, the merciful’. I likewise regard beheading, amputation, stoning and flogging as barbaric. Where a society imposes such punishments it only degrades itself by lowering its behaviour to that of its criminal elements. The criminal justice system of any society must abjure any form of physical or mental abuse if it is to set an example of civilised behaviour – this is recognised in human rights conventions which were created when mature humanistic values began to usurp the savage penalties sanctioned by religion. I believe that every effort should be made to reform people who commit wrongs, including those committing such utter savagery as Lama’s father. Some people will be capable of reform if they are brought to realise the wrong which they have done. Some people will not reform and all that can be done is to prevent them from harming any more people by keeping them in custody. I have seen no evidence that condoning the savage punishments of allah, or imposing pale human imitations following allah’s example are conducive to promoting a humane society. It is of course essential that a society has laws in place which proscribe wrongdoing, including child marriage and spousal rape – neither of which, to my knowledge, are proscribed in the qur’an or the sunna. Ultimately, the most important way to prevent or at least minimise the perpetration of vile crimes is to educate children to respect themselves and other people, to learn to empathise, and to reject violence as any form of solution to social problems.
The “savage punishments of allah” are the reactions of a mother whose child has been harmed. You will see these reactions as long as children (remembering that people are generally referred to as children in scriptures) are being harmed. If we protect children from harm–physical, mental, and spiritual–the reactions will stop. Also, they did not have the prisons we do in that time and place.
Could you clarify … 1: do you condone torture that is carried out at allah’s behest in hell and which is described in the qur’an: garments of fire & the pouring of boiling fluids on to people? 2: Do you support any or all of the legal penalties of beheading, amputation, stoning and flogging which are prescribed in the qur’an and sunna? I note that you have already said that ‘harsh punishments and hell are made for such people’ (Lana’s father).
Thanks for the reply. Whilst the Islamic world regards Muhammed as the greatest man who ever lived, I do know that there are serious allegations made against him: that he did condone stoning & amputation, that he approved the execution of men who had already surrendered, that he had sex with a nine year old. Defenders of Muhammed who stop short of outright glorification of these matters will seek to argue about the context of the times. It is true that different times have different standards of behaviour but, for me, reason and decency say a firm no to all of these aforementioned. Even if you do still see him as a force for good, let’s be objective about what is known about his life – in which case, does he really deserve to be placed on a pedestal? There have been an awful lot more enlightened people in history in my book. Let us embrace our oneness as a species, commit ourselves to non-violence and to reason and thus to the abjuration of the unverifiable and often repugnant (e.g. hell) claims of revealed religions.
Muhammed was going up against people like 5-year-old Lama’s father who raped, tortured and killed her. These people never followed him, they only pretend. Harsh punishments and hell are made for such people. It was because of the prevalence of these men at the time that Aisha’s father asked Muhammed to marry and take care of her. No matter what anyone claims, there is no hard evidence to show if or when he slept with her. She never had any children with him.
“There is no god” is precisely what Prophet Muhammed was saying–he destroyed ALL of the gods in the Ka’bah, and Arabic is not case sensitive, so there is not nor ever was God. He was talking of oneness, connectedness (sincerity), not any god or God.
That’s interesting Deborah. I confess I am no Arabist, nor a theologian, but I’ve always understood that allah is derived from al ilah, ‘the god’, & that allah (I’ve read – related to Hebrew el) was originally one of many gods – the others being subsequently abolished in development of monotheism, in the same way that the Jews came about their one yahweh. If what you say is true, I’d have thought that an Arabic word meaning ‘oneness’, ‘connectedness’ etc would have been applied as the primary name instead of ‘the god’. Academic discussion aside, it is certainly the case that today allah is perceived as someone whose will must be obeyed & enforced – but isn’t that what was said from the off in the qur’an & sunna? Not seeking to stereotype, but we’re back to stoning & amputations which I contend are – to say the least – unethical in any circumstance. That is my view as a humanist anyway, salaam.
The word god you are referring to is simply pointing to something that is worthy of worship. In Sura Iklas (Sincerity) the word Allah is clearly explained as meaning one–no word “god” comes after that word–it is added in translations by scholarly and political puppeteers who need the fictional God they have created and use to control others. Regarding the stoning and amputations; Muhammed could do only so much in the very small window of time he had–no one can turn an entire society around on a dime. He did what he could, always pointing in a direction away from all that. However, he prophesied they would backslide terribly and that there would come a day when the mosques would be in fine shape, but the worst people would be going into and coming out of them.
An inspired re-working of the Shahada, Maryam, echoing the words of the rationalist British Liberal MP, J M Robertson (1856-1933): You deny the existence of nine-hundred-and-ninety-nine alleged Gods. I merely deny one – yours.
whoops … should be ‘… one more – yours.’
Contessa,
to continue OTing, there’s an even better (for certain values of better) legend of that well-known Briton and non-saint here
Thanks for your activities, let me paste my idea about islamophobia here, maybe it’s not match here but I ‘d like ithere to attend you to it:
I have of course islamophobia, I have phobia with the sentences of Quran that order to crimes and with islamists who do these crimes!
Islamophobia means you can not , don’t have phobia from Islam, Islam’s manifest is Quran, you can not be passive with ordering to crimes and systematic violences, with sentence that order to kill nonbelievers to lslam, stoning, rape, rape children, cutting hands and feet of people oppositly, killing with falling down from mountains for homosexuals and many other crimes, if somebody don’t have phobia, are passive or kindness with these crimes, I have phobia from them to! Islamophobia in words means it, but you can not have phobia from lslam and say ok it’s enough and I am so kindness with who do these crimes, logically you have phobia from them as criminals of these crimes! It’s so funny that some islamists or their guards and supporters! try to something else with falsification!, they try to save these source of crimes Quran and criminals of it with trying to show that you have phobia from so called Muslims that at first sufferd from Islam, the people that can not become free from lslam and islamists, although they were and are in fight with lslam for long time, you can see them in Iran, Egypt, Tunisia, Afghanistan and all other countries under crimes of lslam! yes we have phobia from Islam and its crime manifest Islam, from islamists who do these crimes like Taliban, Alghaedeh, Islamic Republic, Hamas, Hizbollah and …, and not only from so called Muslims that they are directly under these crimes but also not from poor kept unaware people that they use them to do their crimes on them and got to their hatred aims and use them to do it too! (of course these last group are like aware islamists dangerous too but they are not same, they don’t work for islamists, and usually when they be attended to their false they accept and stop, because of their kept calm humanity that all have it, but has to take care about them , if they want to do Islamic crimes be stopped, attend them and try to free them from Islam for themselves and others!) one mounths ago Islamic Republic cuted the fingers of one man in shiraaz that they made him like other millions people so poor that was in danger of dieing when he tried to get something to eat they arrested him and with the sentences of Quran cuted his fingers! I attend to who that try to show these two group islamists (criminals) and millions so called Muslims but actually under crimes of Islam same! no, it’s not so, these millions are in fighting to become free from Islam and criminals islamists! we support them and help them with fighting with Islam for their and our rights! we are same in hate and have phobia and fighting with these crimes, with sentences of Quran and islamists! There is no place for new fascism Islam, I have of course islamophobia, I have phobia with the sentences of Quran that order to crimes and with islamists who do these crimes! http://www.m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152565497765012&id=601700011&set=a.107870495011.190493.601700011&ref=stream&_rdr#10152567165835012 The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran. Most of today’s Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book’s many calls to violence according to what their own moral preconceptions find justificable. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology. Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad’s own martial legacy – and that of his companions -along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
Hey, last time Maryam brought up an Atheist version of the shahada, I took note and came up with a tattoo design for it. I wasn’t sure I’d done it right, but an Iraqi dude noticed it when I had accidentally left my notebook open and confirmed the meaning. It’s good to go!
What do you think of that, though? Should an american satan rock that tatt, or is it too culturally insensitive? I know cultural insensitivity is a curse word around here & I tend to agree, but let me put it another way. Moslems are an oppressed minority here, for real. For a guy who looks like their typical oppressor (Anglo) to wear an open insult to their stupid faith, that seems like a dick move.
But oh, I hate Islam an awful lot. Submission. It puts the thing I hate the most about all religions front and center. I wanna show my pride in rejecting all flavors of god. Should I get the tattoo?
Since St Patrick’s is coming in a few days, here is a piece of interesting reading about St Patrick and the so-called snakes he supposedly drove to the sea..
A Myth!
http://www.care2.com/causes/did-saint-patrick-really-chase-the-snakes-from-ireland.html
Yes there is a God, an invented one by men..He exists in millions of People’s imagination..I am ok with that.
What I very much resent is the blatant violence and hatred towards people who do not believe the same as you..This is across the board around the World whatever the denomination may be. I am against any form of proselytizing. Just look at the very expensive and wasteful process of electing a New Pope and the ridiculous and anachronistic Carnival around it, while 80% of their flock lives below poverty level!!!
Thy shalt not kill..and what do they do? Kill for this reason, kill for that reason and the blatant killing of our environment and not a peep from any of those clerics, nor priests, nor popes, nor monks etc and that to me, my fellow humans, is the biggest sin of all and it will be our demise very soon!